William is a guy I go to school with. When the 26 of us went to the School of the Americas vigil this fall, three of the people in our group took high risk action and got arrested for civil disobedience. Two of them (one of whom I live with) got probation time and fines after they pled guilty. William pled not-guilty, and will be in jail until the middle of August, right before school starts again.
Yikes. It's funny, I was just thinking about your friends who got arrested last night. When I was at the Howard Zinn talk, he stressed that we all have to be prepared to be civilly disobedient once the war starts, and it got me thinking about what that actually means. I suppose it would be wise for us each to decide beforehand how much we are willing to sacrifice, but it's hard to make those decisions in advance.
I need to talk to you so badly. Maybe I'll try calling you this weekend.
I just can't stand Howard Zinn. I read The People's History of the United States as a high school textbook, and then he somehow got himself invited to speak at my school. His sole purpose in life seems to be educating (someone??) that absolutely nothing we've ever been taught is true, there is a vast conspiracy dedicated brainwashing young Americans, and that no good has ever resulted from any policy put into effect by "the West" -- starting with Christopher Columbus and continuing on through the last 511 years. Such extreme, closed-minded views that stem from a clear agenda that one has bother me. There's nothing wrong with pointing out flaws, failures, etc...but failure to give any credit where credit is due really bothers me. For instance: I'll grant that Christopher Columbus, in his attempts to "discover" the "New World" did a lot of heinous things, among them mass slaughtering of native populations. Is that to imply, however, that there are absolutely no positive consequences to CC sailing off to seek his fortune? Should we all -- every one of us -- move back to Italy and Spain, eschewing any good exacted upon the world in regards to the development of "the West" in the last 500 years? I think not, but that is what Howard Zinn would have us believe. I mean, Thomas Jefferson and George Washington both owned slaves. From and HZ point of view, probably it would be good to tear down the national monuments built in their honor, as a mechanism for vilifying their obvious moral inferiority and downright racism.
In my experience, Howard Zinn wants absolutely nothing to do with people who disagree with him, and would rather publicly castigate them then hold a reasoned debate. He has no desire to hear that I think the welfare state enacted by FDR and perfected by LBJ and Nixon have done just as much harm to civilization as Columbus' violent rages. (I don't necessarily want/need him to agree with me, I'd just like it if he offered the same level of respect to my opinion, as he feels his opinion deserves. As in, I may not agree with what you are saying, but I will defend to the death your right to say it!) Furthermore, I feel that the majority of his daily activities (from brushing his teeth to writing revisionist history) result from a strong sense of self-righteousness and the feeling that the only people who achieved true virtue and moral rectitude in this world are pacifist revisionist historians and everyone else is clearly racist or sexist or something else-ist.
I'm perfectly okay with the freedom of speech and the debate of ideas -- it's one of the things that makes the United States truly wonderful. However, my experience with Howard Zinn has never proven to me that he is capable of mature, issue-based debate free of name-calling, judgement, and intolerance. If you believe otherwise (as I suspect you do) show me hard facts, writings, quotes, etc..., and I'll at least listen to what you have to say!
I've never read The People's History of the United States, so I really can't comment on that. My only direct experience of Howard Zinn was at the talk he gave at the New School a couple days ago, and from his talk I got the impression that he's a knowledgeable, pleasant, and dedicated person with an excellent sense of humor.
He's a history professor, so he talks about issues in the context of history. I do agree with him that a good portion of what most of us are taught about history is ethnocentric and limited, but it would be fairly pointless to argue that here. As to his feelings about Washington and Jefferson, he made many comments the other day in support of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I think he would advocate the enforcement of those documents more strongly than most Americans these days.
The basic point that he made yesterday was that when we go to war thousands of people die. And in his view as a history professor, most of the wars in our history have been unwarranted and ineffective. He quoted a Pentagon official talking about the coming war and saying, "There will not be a safe place anywhere in Baghdad." Government claims that all civilian deaths are accidental are ridiculous, in light of that remark. I've heard military experts on tv using the term "blitzkrieg." They plan to bomb Baghdad to ruin. So I think the major concern at the moment is the condition of thousands of already suffering people. One of the problems with a tyrannical government is that when you attack the tyrant, you also attack the people who have to rely on him. Mr. Zinn seemed to be concerned by the proposition that we are going to free Iraqis by killing them.
And while the government is quick to dismiss the claims of peace activists, Howard Zinn is in a good position to speak, since he flew a bomber plane in World War II and has been a peace activist ever since. He knows from first hand experience that the government orders its pilots to bomb civilian areas.
Of course I don't know him personally, but based on his demeanor yesterday I'm guessing he would be very willing to hear you out on your opinions and then to agree with them or refute them in a respectful manner. He was very respectful to the students who asked him questions after his talk here. He seemed genuinely glad to be talking with people who want to educate themselves and openly discuss the issues at hand.
You have every right to have a negative opinion of him. I'm hoping to read The People's History of the United States soon, so maybe I'll get back to you on that :)
I would love to talk to you too- it's been a long time, and there's been a lot happening. Though some days I'm not really sure WHAT has happened! I'm on retreat all weekend, so I won't be around, but maybe I'll call you this upcoming week? Tuesday? love and peace, ~Dorothy also, I agree with you on that other entry of yours- I really hope we don't go to war. I'm still holding onto that hope.
Don't worry about it, thigns have been a little crazy for all of us. I know we'll talk this weekend. I'm really excited for it. See you at lunchie tomorrow. And then a whole weekend of PRAYER! love lots, ~T-Dawg
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timeasmymeasure
no subject
Date: 2003-02-12 01:48 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-02-13 12:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-02-12 03:26 pm (UTC)I need to talk to you so badly. Maybe I'll try calling you this weekend.
no subject
Date: 2003-02-12 07:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-02-12 07:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-02-12 09:41 pm (UTC)In my experience, Howard Zinn wants absolutely nothing to do with people who disagree with him, and would rather publicly castigate them then hold a reasoned debate. He has no desire to hear that I think the welfare state enacted by FDR and perfected by LBJ and Nixon have done just as much harm to civilization as Columbus' violent rages. (I don't necessarily want/need him to agree with me, I'd just like it if he offered the same level of respect to my opinion, as he feels his opinion deserves. As in, I may not agree with what you are saying, but I will defend to the death your right to say it!) Furthermore, I feel that the majority of his daily activities (from brushing his teeth to writing revisionist history) result from a strong sense of self-righteousness and the feeling that the only people who achieved true virtue and moral rectitude in this world are pacifist revisionist historians and everyone else is clearly racist or sexist or something else-ist.
I'm perfectly okay with the freedom of speech and the debate of ideas -- it's one of the things that makes the United States truly wonderful. However, my experience with Howard Zinn has never proven to me that he is capable of mature, issue-based debate free of name-calling, judgement, and intolerance. If you believe otherwise (as I suspect you do) show me hard facts, writings, quotes, etc..., and I'll at least listen to what you have to say!
Night,
Katie
no subject
Date: 2003-02-12 10:13 pm (UTC)He's a history professor, so he talks about issues in the context of history. I do agree with him that a good portion of what most of us are taught about history is ethnocentric and limited, but it would be fairly pointless to argue that here. As to his feelings about Washington and Jefferson, he made many comments the other day in support of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I think he would advocate the enforcement of those documents more strongly than most Americans these days.
The basic point that he made yesterday was that when we go to war thousands of people die. And in his view as a history professor, most of the wars in our history have been unwarranted and ineffective. He quoted a Pentagon official talking about the coming war and saying, "There will not be a safe place anywhere in Baghdad." Government claims that all civilian deaths are accidental are ridiculous, in light of that remark. I've heard military experts on tv using the term "blitzkrieg." They plan to bomb Baghdad to ruin. So I think the major concern at the moment is the condition of thousands of already suffering people. One of the problems with a tyrannical government is that when you attack the tyrant, you also attack the people who have to rely on him. Mr. Zinn seemed to be concerned by the proposition that we are going to free Iraqis by killing them.
And while the government is quick to dismiss the claims of peace activists, Howard Zinn is in a good position to speak, since he flew a bomber plane in World War II and has been a peace activist ever since. He knows from first hand experience that the government orders its pilots to bomb civilian areas.
Of course I don't know him personally, but based on his demeanor yesterday I'm guessing he would be very willing to hear you out on your opinions and then to agree with them or refute them in a respectful manner. He was very respectful to the students who asked him questions after his talk here. He seemed genuinely glad to be talking with people who want to educate themselves and openly discuss the issues at hand.
You have every right to have a negative opinion of him. I'm hoping to read The People's History of the United States soon, so maybe I'll get back to you on that :)
no subject
Date: 2003-02-13 12:34 pm (UTC)love and peace,
~Dorothy
also, I agree with you on that other entry of yours- I really hope we don't go to war. I'm still holding onto that hope.
no subject
Date: 2003-02-13 11:28 am (UTC)Yay for our date tomorrow night, yay prayer retreat, boo Vday!
love your bff
no subject
Date: 2003-02-13 12:35 pm (UTC)love lots,
~T-Dawg